Conscious Evolution: The Soulful Path Of Leadership With Amy Elizabeth Fox

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We often overlook the human element that propels transformation, thinking that change solely relies on technical prowess and innovative strategies. This episode is about to show you how consciously evolving people are the changemakers the world needs. In this interview, meet Amy Elizabeth Fox, the CEO of Mobius Executive Leadership, as she shares her profound journey in leading immersive leadership development programs. From a transformative meeting that began a long healing process to discovering her life’s work of helping people, Amy provides insights into her soulful and authentic path. Growing up in New Jersey and transitioning from social activism to consciousness expansion, Amy emphasizes the significance of compassion, inner work, and practical aspects of consciousness in organizational culture. The conversation navigates challenging dialogues, the concept of "Divergent Minds, Convergent Hearts," and the joy and challenges of co-founding Mobius with her sister Erica. Amy also takes us into Mobius' early days, the evolution of its vision, and her reflections on the founder's attachment and burnout. Plus, she introduces the Next Practice Institute, offering a holistic approach to leadership development and trauma-informed programs, showcasing her commitment to transformative leadership and community building. 


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Conscious Evolution: The Soulful Path Of Leadership With Amy Elizabeth Fox

It is my honor to introduce you to my guests today. Amy Elizabeth Fox. Amy is the co-founder and CEO of Mobius Executive Leadership a premier leadership development firm. She’s a thought leader in vertical development and transformational change and a pioneer in Trauma-informed Coaching. Amy has been leading immersive leadership development programs for senior leaders for the last 20 years. Amazing. In Leading Mobius, she has helped build a global network of practitioners with coaches, facilitators, and team interventionists. Hopefully, I got that word, right. 

Then field of adult development and organizational change in societal good. This year, she is co-leading a first-of-its-kind certification program and Trauma-informed Coaching and consulting with her teacher Thomas Hubl. She also serves as a guest faculty for the African Leadership Institute Desmond Tutu Fellow Program at Oxford, and the University of Chicago's Leadership and Society program. She lives in a small purple house in Wellesley, Massachusetts. It is truly an honor and a privilege to welcome you to the virtual campfire, Amy. 

Thank you so much, Tony. I feel really delighted and I can already feel the heat of the campfire. It's super lovely to be here. 

Wonderful. When I thought about this idea of the campfire, it was because I wanted to have these conversations be something that's deep and heartfelt and also a place for conversations you wouldn't normally have and just walking around in the world. I'm really looking forward to deep digging into your story and your journey to getting to where you are making such a wonderful impact in the world. That's what we're gonna do today. 

Yeah, I really look forward to that and I think I just want to before we dive into a comment that the notion of unusual emergent and profound conversation is really one of the antidotes I think to the level of numbness dissociation, and disconnection that we're seeing in the world. The notion of a campfire to create a kind of container that's a got a crucible of heat and permission for truth-telling is actually I think a very very healing thing to do. I just say that before we start.

The notion of unusual, emergent, and profound conversation is really one of the antidotes to the level of numbness, dissociation, and disconnection that we're seeing in the world.

Yes. It's truly why you're part of my tribe because I couldn't agree more wonderful. The way we roll on the show is we actually talk about what's called flashpoints and these are the points in your journey that ignited your gifts into the world. You can start wherever you like and you can bounce around or wherever you like. What I'd like to hear is some of those points that have ignited your gifts through your journey and brought you to making this wonderful impact in the world. I'm going to turn it over to you and well pause along the way and see what shows up. 

A Healing Process And Invitation To A Soulful Life

Yeah, what a wonderful invitation. I mean, I think so many of us get kind of a routinized version of our life narrative where we sort of anchor certain flash points and we'd tell the story from there. I think there's an interesting challenge. I'd like to give myself this morning which is to tell new flashpoints and sort of restory the story and see how it looks from there. When you ask the question, the thing that immediately came into my mind, which is such a lovely thing to recall and celebrate is that very early in my 20s, I had the great grace to meet a therapist named Paul Dunion who is still a very dear friend and colleague of mine. 

This goes back 40 years. I'm not young anymore and meeting Paul in many ways was the start of a very long healing process on the one hand and an invitation to live a life that was soulful and guided by that which was soulful. I think up until that point. I had been raised in a very sort of traditional achievement-oriented direction and my life could have just unfolded as a race for further and further external validation and accomplishment. 

Because Paul was only interested in the language of my tears and the language of my howling and the shaking that my body had to do to allow me to come back into myself, that became that primitive exchange of truth-telling and vulnerability and raw life force. Living inside raw life force became kind of my interior guidance for all the choices that came later and I think that in some ways you could say that was a seminal flashpoint. 

Beautiful. I mean it's beautiful, but also it's one of these things where beauty doesn't always look the same to everyone. Sometimes you have to go through those dark moments and the exploration inside to really see what is emerging almost like a phoenix and using the fire I guess as our way of looking at this is that we need to explore the deep darkness and what's inside to then see what's emerging in that. 

I really really believe that, Tony. I mean my whole life's work has been about helping people not to try to sort of contrive joy on top of a body of pain and disconnection, but to turn towards that which they're holding physiologically, neurologically, somatically, and emotionally to as you say really give it room, give it breath, give it air, give it attention, give it tender holding. Not only does that allow for fresh wind what you’re calling emergence to arise, but it also causes a sort of indwelling inside oneself of presence and availability and openness instead of sort of the felt experience of stuffing a lot of stuff literally which causes people to need to exhaust themselves, numb themselves. 

It's the source of all of our addiction is that sort of self-disconnection and can create a context or an invitation for people that's safe enough and reliable strong enough, durable enough to hold that pain or to help them hold that pain. There's an unlock. I've seen it thousands of times as people come home to themselves that is actually quite as you said quite beautiful and light-filled and joyous and hopeful. The pain is actually the doorway to home for many many people. 

A key component of this though is like you said that you talked about safety and having the right container for that. The word that's coming to mind for me is compassion and maybe it's another word, maybe you think of it as love. If you don't have that compassion piece and someone's taking you on this journey to explore, then it can leave a wound that's even worse than what’s originally there. You need to have the right guides, and the right people there to help you explore and to also make sure that it's not waking you or making it worse. 

Yeah, and I think you're pointing to one of the qualities. It's among a small handful of critical qualities that I would say are the weight of a practitioner whether it's a coach, a therapist, or a Healer. One of them is compassion for sure meaning when you bring me the less functional aspects of your life or the places you feel broken and wounded or the things that you're ashamed about that you find in me and unconditional acceptance of those things. The reason that my firm, Mobious, put such an emphasis on practitioners doing their own inner work is that I can only grant you the same compassion for your broken parts that I grant my own more fragile aspects. 

If I'm in judgment or in a hostile relationship with the parts of me that are less polished, then it's very difficult. Even if I intend to, it's very difficult for me to extend a genuine safety to you. If I have traveled that terrain in myself and I understand that almost everything that looks dysfunctional now was a brilliant survival strategy that was very needed at an earlier time, I have a reverence for those strategies in myself and in others. That's what I think it means to really be in the state of compassion that you're describing 

Amy’s Foundation

Beautiful. Before we get into maybe the next flashpoint, I want to get more into the story itself of like well, where did you grow up? What were you doing in those early days that now led you to the trajectory of doing the work you're doing now? Tell us that backgrounder. 

Sure. Well, I'm a Bruce Springsteen's Jersey girl. I grew up in New Jersey. I'm the oldest daughter of four daughters. My parents were academics and social researchers around integrating diversity into classrooms in New York City school systems. I think I learned for them respect for intellectual pursuit and the importance of academic research and thought leadership as a way to shape society or help society to evolve. I also learned from them what it means to have a life of service and to believe that your work life is meant to contribute to society and to the common good. 

Your work life is meant to contribute to society and to the common good.

I also learned from them what it means to prioritize raising your family. Both of them were very brilliant and very committed to their careers, but both of them spent probably a disproportionate and a inordinate amount of time raising their daughters and loving us and cultivating us. It's not something you necessarily appreciate so clearly as a child but in hindsight, especially I think to have had a father who was so involved with us at that time was very unusual and very inspiring even in hindsight. 

That's my early childhood. I spent the first part of my career in an extraordinary role at the Cathedral Church of Saint John the Divine which was in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s, I don't know Crucible for Consciousness work, the privilege of working with Paul Gorman and Carl Sagan and Senator Gore to jumpstart a religious response to the environmental crisis and to help pivot the discourse around the very very painful choices being made related to the climate crisis, global population rise, deforestation species depletion, global warming shift from purely being made on economic and public policy terms to being made on ethical and moral and stewardship perspectives. 

That was a wonderful project and I had a great apprenticeship with them watching how you can use interfaith dialogue in this case, but one could extract to say multi-stakeholder dialogue cross-boundary partnerships, unconventional alliances to move humanity forward towards looking at the things that are most urgent to act on. 

I think that incubated in me the notion that a small handful of people could make a big difference and the impulse to be a cultural creative and to think of my work, on the one hand, is very intimate. I work very deeply with individual executives and their families but at the same time very sweeping meaning I aspire to really reshape how private organizations operate as organizations and to infuse organizational culture with more love and more beauty. Maybe I'll say that and it's a boy. 

Elevation Of Consciousness As Intervention

What I find so fascinating first of all, because you had a great container growing up and you had, a lot of great influence, which is amazing. Also, the sense of the power that comes from you is not one of technical or innovative and you're working with companies that are innovative and making an impact but you do it from a place of more consciousness and the driving impact from influencing how people look at the world. I think that's what's really interesting people often think that we change the world through technical prowess or through innovative strategies, but it's maybe more so about how we consciously evolve as people. Maybe I went too far here, but I wanted to ask your perspective on that. Would you agree? 

You didn't go too far from my perspective, Tony. I mean, I spent many many years as a social activist and I still usually respect those people that are called to that kind of agitation activism protest, and legislative work, all of it is critical. What I felt over time was that it was a kind of stuck loop where people were taking sides and arguing from their sides and it was very unlikely for there to be bridges. Of course over the 40 years, we've seen more and more fracture and more and more polarization. 

At some point, I started to ask myself what's the deeper cause of this structure and consciousness of this splitting rather than attacking or even engaging with any of the splits as such how do we help people to have a more unitive perspective that they would bring to bear on any issue. The issues start to have a generative fluidity. I did start to get much more interested in the elevation of consciousness as the intervention. Then I started to do more and more spiritual and mystical study with some extremely wonderful teachers, Linda Cesara, Thomas Hubl, Patrick Connor, and Shai Tubali. 

I've just been very very blessed to walk with some great masters. I started to understand that there's a direct link between the expansion of consciousness. We could call it on the one hand and the excavation of traumatic material, personal, familial, ancestral, and collective. You can't successfully engage an ascendant path of expansion and hope to bring that fresh wind that lights that possibility of hope into the world unless you also do the descending path in tandem. The descending path is bringing that light fully into your life into every one of your relationships into every one of your conversations. 

It's taking seriously the day-to-day life as an opportunity for growth as an opportunity for healing and as a chance to really embody or walk your talk that we sometimes say. I think the dilemma of talking about consciousness is that it can sound very very abstract, but it actually comes down to helping an executive turn towards his family as something that matters to him and not just spend a hundred percent of his life chi on his work. It comes down to helping an executive share the story of their abuse in childhood that they've never had the courage or a context to speak out loud. 

It comes down to helping partners who are triggering each other. Come to understand what the triggers are and have a sensitivity and to go back to your word of compassion for what each person is struggling with so that they can get an unlock. It has very real-life consequences for interpersonal skills for team aspiration levels for organizational creativity. I don't think of this at all in the end as being an abstract pursuit. It's a very tactile pursuit because the goal is Thomas calls it mystics in the marketplace. Patrick would talk about it as using everyday life as the theater of your illumination. They're both pointing to the critical step that has to happen in our generation which is moving spiritual practice from the zafu to the boardroom. That's some of what I aspire to do, anyway. 

Consciousness is not an abstract pursuit. It's a very tactile pursuit.

I know you know where to go with this because that just was so beautifully said, but it really resonates with me it starts with the individual but also has to move from individual understanding of how we're conscious of ourselves and what's important to us, but then also the collective and understanding how do we become more conscious of how the collective can shift in connect and bridge. 

I think those important things that we need to be mindful of, you remind me of this concept in my latest book, which is this idea of I wanted to bring people together called The Divergent Minds Convergent Hearts, which is this idea of bringing people who think differently into rooms to have conversations to bridge the gap that we have in our conversations, but then leave with the sense of like knowing each other. Not necessarily having to agree, but understanding each other and understanding their point of view because oftentimes we don't have that connection. We don't have that opportunity to hear each other out. We stay in our own little thought bubbles and that's key. 

That's absolutely right. I had the privilege for 10 years before I started Mobius with my sister Erica to teach Harvard Law School's work on difficult conversations, which is summarized in a book by my friends Bruce Patton, Douglas Stone, and Sheila Heen, and that book talks about what makes it so difficult for us to have conversations across points of view or perspectives and to hold what you're describing and in a way as the third Story. 

How do I hold my opinion and your opinion with equal respect and equal attribution of merit? The dilemma is that when we have a point of view and perspective and we're triggered, our internal climate gets reactive, and when we get reactively know from all the neuroscience that is the point of view, our mental capacities or expertise gets rigidified. We get less open to persuasion. We get less able to listen. 

We get less able to take in divergent points of view. If you don't help people to learn the emotional intelligence skills that my friend Danny Goldman talks about of self-awareness, self-management, and self-expression, then by definition you're going to have substantive conversations that get locked in debate mode and really struggle to do the very important thing you're describing which is to put people in the context in which they can actually learn from one another. 

Diversify their own perspective by learning from other stories other points of view other cultural orientations other histories. One of the things that we do in every leadership program that I have the joy to guide is that we tell people's life stories. We find that if you slow everything down and take seriously what it means to have a person bring you the real walk of their life that creates a kind of quality of months, I want to call it molten love like there's a there's a quality that happens in the group when you've received story on a story on the story and the group has dedicated real-time to that process or practice. 

They know each other in a way that people very rarely know one another and you'll see and held and accept it in a way that people rarely get to taste. From there, you can really go anywhere because people feel like a true sensible belonging. I'm just adding that because I think what you said is correct, we have to learn to listen to people who see the world differently than us, but we also have to learn to hear the full humanity of the people that we're working with. I think that's also an important part of being able to really receive each other. 

We have to learn to listen to people who see the world differently than us, but we also have to learn to hear the full humanity of the people that we're working with.

The Starting And Evolution Of Mobius

I mean this couldn't be more important. Like I said earlier in the show this is what we need most of all right now. This is like a moment for us as a human race to really consider how are we connecting and creating that opportunity for us to get to know each other on that level and not stay at the surface and hold tight to our own ideologies. Yeah. I'm gonna go back to something you said earlier, which I think will be a little bit more a little lighter, but tell me a little bit about what it's like to start a company with your sister. 

Well, if you're lucky enough to have a magical and brilliant sister as I happily do, it's great great fun. Erica is a lawyer by training. She's had an honored position as a lecturer at Harvard Law School since she graduated 20 years ago and she wrote a wonderful book called Winning From Within summarizing her multi decades of coaching, work with senior leaders, and the public and private sector. I am a social change agent and psychotherapist by training and background. 

We have very different areas of focus in our work up until the time that we started Mobius together and we saw that there was a real opportunity to marry everything Erica had learned about communication and skill building and negotiation and problem-solving and everything I had learned about the human psyche and the interior development journey. She was in fact on the threshold of her pioneering work in the field of conflict mediation and negotiation around leading oneself and the multiple facets or voices that are in our heads all the time all day long and sort of struggling with each other. 

There was a really natural coming together of the two rivers of our lives and our work lives and that was wonderful. When I started the company I said, Tony, I would do it for 20 years which seemed like a very long football field away, but it's actually pretty much now. I'll step down as CEO at the end of 2025. One of the things I look forward to is getting the conversations with my sister back to just being family conversations because the only shadow side of starting a company with your family is it really of course does blend into everything we do together. We're both very devoted to the company and its vision and its mission and it has a lot of our life energy and our relationship energy. Yeah, we're going to take a nice sweet vacation on the other side of this. 

That's fantastic. Well, I mean tell me about the early days though in general. I mean, I'd love to hear about how does one starts this organization where the premise was pretty lofty, but maybe wasn't so lofty in the beginning that's kind of evolved. 

I think it was lofty and not lofty in the sense that both Erica and I dream big about making a significant contribution with our lives. As I said, we learned that very early from our parents, and certainly everything in our lives has set us up to do that for which I'm very grateful. With lofty in the sense of our own aspirations to help and to serve. It was much more modest in terms of what we thought the company would become for sure.

Well, I couldn't have started a company with the notion that it was gonna get as big and as well placed in this Global and as radical as it became. I sort of would say I almost always had the sense that the entity itself, the organism of Mobius, had its own destiny. My job as one of its founders was to constantly listen for and be willing to be changed by what it wanted to become and that's more how I felt it. I feel like it revealed itself to me and it revealed itself to us and it's still doing that. It's still unexpected opportunities arise and you suddenly realize the mission and everything we've learned could have a new application and a new expression and help in a new way. 

As an example, a few years ago, we had an executive, we do very deep immersive leadership programs 3-day, 4-day, or 5-day off-site retreats with very significant transformational coaches and deep early attachment work. Anyway, very beautiful work. One of the people that came into the program had had a quite severe traumatic incident eight years earlier. He had been stabbed and he had never really worked on it and he asked me during the program if was that something I could help him with. 

We did do a couple of sessions and then I realized that the scope of his need was actually more than could be well safely held in the context of a multi-client program and all the different pulls on my attention leading to such a thing. I invited him to come for a couple of days with his wife and just work with a couple of our coaches in a retreat setting. 

I thought that was going to be a sort of one-off event and wonderful to do it for him. It was I think really a gift for him and his family, but now we do 10 a month. In some ways, I'm constantly creating by what appears to be wanted and that's how I know what the next product or service Mobius should prepare is. It's a constant dialogue back and forth with the world in that way and with our clients in that way and I love that act of co-creation. In that way, I feel like I'm the soul whisperer of Mobius more than I'm its leader. 

I just love that you hear that because it's something about that that had an aha moment in my mind and just in general that a lot of the conversations have with founders, especially because there's an attachment we have with our babies if you will, that we have to make sure that we're that they're separate. There are a separate entity to us and it's also about having a dialogue with our entities that are not ourselves. They're not us. 

They are something we created and we have to also be listening to it and saying, what does it want from us? What do I want from it? That also helps us to make sure that we don't get into that burnout that often happens when we start to do all that we can to make that thing drive. Sometimes we have to separate and say, “I need to take care of myself so I can be here for that entity in the long run.” Does that land with you? 

Yeah, there's so many strands in what you said and maybe I'll just highlight a few of them as they've lived for me. One, I think, early on in Mobius. I think I was very very identified with it. I did work on it 24/7 seven days a week around the clock and maybe that's what's needed for a birthing process, the station process, but once I realized it was a marathon and not a sprint. I had the insight you're just sharing which is you have to take a bit of emotional distance from it and boundary in some way, self-care, times for reflection, times for renewal, and times for incubation of new ideas. 

The rhythm I have now is still quite immersive, but I do regular retreats with my teachers as a way to pull my way out and move from sort of present-day time to eternal time where I find I get the most guidance and the most sense of perspective. The second thing I would say particularly if there are founders listening, I just want to be honest. Azure companies succeed you get pulled back into taking it personally and your ego kind of goes like, “Look at this,” and I don't know if this is true for other people but it was for me when I started Mobius perhaps because I was a woman and I had no business background. 

A lot of different people told me I couldn't do it and that my ambitions were too broad and too big and misplaced or misguided. I think there was a kind of unconscious revenge factor also driving me to prove myself. At some point happily, I sort of thought like okay that's enough that we've done that and then that part let's go a little bit. The big shift happened for me again, if we're talking about milestone moments during COVID. As you know, I was very sick personally. 

I had the illness very extremely and also our work because its in-person immersive training for the most part really dried up quite quickly. Mobius was an ever-expanding company that went to close to zero revenue for a period of time. Very thankfully my colleague Bernard managed to sort how to bring our training online and now we're doing wonderfully well. 

In that period where it looked like I really might lose the company and Erica and I, we might lose the company, there was a lot of grief and the grief was the potential loss of people's livelihoods and the work in the world, but I think if I'm rigorous and pay attention, it was also the uncoupling or the the differentiation between me and the company that needed to happen that was actually a virtuous by-product of that moment. 

Now, makes it much easier for me to be in a succession process and also as you say to let Mobius have its own life force and its own life destiny. I do really think what you just said is very important for founders or leaders of organizations that disidentification but in my experience at least it happens in layers. It's not just a sort of moment in time. It's a thing you have to recommit to over and over. 

Yeah, it's close to impossible to separate emotions from this. I mean I think I can feel that viscerally. I think there's also a sense of we have to manage that and like the stepping away and having that time to kind of look at it from a different angle like go to the balcony if you will, and then look at it and saying like what's going on here so that you're not so in it that it consumes you because otherwise it will consume you. Yeah. 

Yeah, and I think there's a second thing to say, which is it's a devotion to keeping an organization aligned to its core values because it's very seductive to start measuring your success by external benchmarks and external approval. Mobius has always been about creating a consciousness movement and not building a firm. That means there are choices all the time where you have to double down on that choice point and double down on the vision.

It's very seductive to start measuring your success by external benchmarks and external approval.

I'm very very proud of the degree to which we've been really fidelities to that impulse I think throughout and that's why it works by the way. I think organizations that have that ethical alignment and they put it in the fabric of their choices day to day have a much higher likelihood of being trustworthy and having a significant cultural impact than organizations that are putting band data on top of their interior dynamics. 

Lessons On Healing

Yeah, I guess it comes down to like you knowing why you started and why you do what you do is really important. Yeah. I have so many questions I want to ask you but we're gonna run out of time. I have one question particularly that I'm curious about. You've shared a lot about your journey and I'm just gonna curious, what have you learned about yourself that you haven't shared already that you think would be helpful to share with others? 

I mean, maybe two things come to me, Tony. It's I probably could answer that question for a while, but I've learned many things all humbling. One is that healing from significant trauma is a long process. To have great patience with that, I found myself for many years arriving at another layer of healing that was needed and sort of going into shock about how can this still be a theme in my life.

Healing from significant trauma is a long process.

How can this still be a problem in my life? How can I still walk with this level of fear? In the last few years, I've really both as a practitioner and as somebody in a healing process, I think I've come to a deeper piece that it actually just is a long process and Thomas talks about taking on the notion that we're walking forever, which then allows us to be not in a rush and really here and I love that. I feel that with my practitioners we're building a community for the long run. These aren't transaction relationships. These are deep bonds. It's a real community. 

I feel that with the participants that come into my room. My teacher Linda Cesaro once said, “If somebody's sitting in a circle that you're guiding and they're there for healing, you belong to them forever.” It went through me like a lightning bolt because I knew it was true. I know that I have to live that and it's very touching to me like to think of think of these encounters. Not as transitory but as really enduring and profound and you never know how you touch another person's heart. It’s unknowable. 

Well, I mean what it reinforces it mean and really what you shared really hit a chord for me. Is that we need each other. We need other humans in our lives so that we can feel that like, even though we sometimes have to run with our own burdens and they own challenges we have, we need each other to continue to remind us ourselves that we're imperfect and we're flawed, and all those things that come along with us, but we have each other to kind of rely on on the journey. 

Yeah, one of the reasons that I love to do leadership programs with companies, is that those companies operate with too much emphasis on autonomy or what they might call resilience and they pay little too little honor to the importance of the interdependent or communal dimension of what it means to be part of an organization. The notion that you can teach leaders to remember they need others and others need them, that very beautiful insight you just articulated, that’s game-changing for most teams and a sea change for most organizational cultures because they start to be interwoven in that kind of caring and then you have real inclusion. 

Beautiful. Well, we've come to the last question. 


Amy’s Top Impactful Books

This is a more lighthearted one or at least seemingly a light-hearted. What are one or two books that have had an impact on you and why? 

Fantastic. Well, maybe I'll just recap some that I've kind of alluded to. The first one I would mention is my longtime Mentor Paul Dunion's book called Shadow Marriage in which he talks about the dynamics of the projection of shadow in intimate relations, which goes of course way beyond marriage and was a tremendous learning for me and something that I try to teach in all our programs. When people can unpack that and take some ownership of their interior projections, you free up the relationship to be much much less reactive and much less troubled. 

When people can unpack and take some ownership of their interior projections, you free up the relationship to be much less reactive and troubled.

The second is Erica's glorious book Winning From Within which I love partly because she's my sister of course, but also because I think it's an absolutely brilliant translation of deep young and psychology and perennial wisdom into modern business life and also a wonderful self-help book. I recommend that book for everybody. It's fabulous and we use it in all our programs. The third is my teacher Thomas Hubl’s two books. One called Healing Collective Trauma, which really is the seminal book for our field helping us to understand that one dimension of the trauma people walk with is not personal. It's really collective. 

If you want to be a healer, you have to start to have sensitivity to what it means to be a healer across generations, across time, and in the fabric of humanity. The other book attuned which is about what you just mentioned the importance of how much we need each other and how much intimacy we crave and how to make relationships more and more transparent and contactful and nourishing and that's of course, the heart of my work, so I treasure that book also. 

Amazing. I mean just amazing. I've read pretty much all those books except for Paul's book, which I have to now pick up his book. 

You should. You really should. 

I feel bad because I'm being a Mobius member of the community. I feel bad that I haven't picked it yet. 

Next Practice Institute

It's a long cannon. I mean one of the things that I love as, Tony, is the life of ideas in this field and I think of it as a tremendously interdisciplinary craft. It is really a path of lifelong learning that we take super seriously at Mobius. That's why I created a trading arm called the Next Practice Institute because I love craft as well as the work. 

Yeah, I guess I'd love to have that mentioned here is that maybe mentioned briefly about what the next practice institute is because for those who are listening who might want to attend or be part of it. 

Yeah. Fantastic. It's really sort of the poorest graduate school in leadership development, adult development, group process facilitation coaching, team intervention, and business mediation. It's designed for HR practitioners internal to companies as well as external practitioners doing this kind of transformational consulting work. It offers an annual gathering which we'll do next November which is an in-person five-day immersion with 200 practitioners from around the world studying the various tributaries of this art and singing and dancing together in a really vibrant week of immersive community. 

We also offer supervision groups. We offer lots of different professional development workshops. We're sponsoring the trauma-informed certificate program that you mentioned at the start of our call. You can go to our website at  and go into the next practice institute section and that's open to of course Mobius practitioners as you are Tony, but it's open to really anybody who wants to dedicate themselves to this intersection of best practice and next practice. We'd be delighted to have you join us for any of our offerings of course. 

It's wonderful, by the way. I know I'm bias, but it truly is an amazing experience. I'm gonna wrap up by saying, Amy. This was just an incredible conversation. I'm just honored and thrilled to been able to share you with my audience. Thank you for coming on the show. 

Well, thank you both for having me and asking such profoundly meaningful questions. It was a beautiful dialogue for me, too. Thank you everybody for listening. 

Yes. I know you already mentioned Mobius, but if people wanted to find out more about you, is there anything else that you wanted to offer up in terms of the place they can find you? 

No, I think you know everything that I'm doing is and currently under the banner of Mobius and you'll find lots of different resources on our website. Of course, if anybody's excited about this work and wants to learn more, please just drop me a note. 

Fantastic. Thanks again, and thanks for listeners for going in this journey with you. I know you're with us and I know you're leaving really inspired and really feeling an emotional connection to to Amy. Thank you so much and that's a wrap. 

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