Crisis To Purpose: Story Of Growth And Learning With Eduardo Briceno

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Part of growth is seeing the transformation from trying to please others to finding meaning within yourself. In this episode, host Tony Martignetti welcomes Eduardo Briceno, global keynote speaker and facilitator, to share the flashpoints that took him on a journey of finding himself, taking us to the world of finance and eventually to his purpose of spreading the message of a growth mindset. From childhood experiences challenging sheltered norms to overcoming a quarter-life crisis, Eduardo explores the transformative power of learning and growth. He also talks about the process of writing his book, The Performance Paradox, and discusses the counterintuitive reality that constant performance hinders progress. As they navigate the key moments in Eduardo's life, you will gain valuable lessons on embracing the Learning Zone, fostering a growth mindset, and building learning communities that fuel continuous improvement. Don’t miss out on the great wisdom in this conversation.


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Crisis To Purpose: Story Of Growth And Learning With Eduardo Briceno

It is my honor to introduce you to my guest, Eduardo Briceño. Eduardo is the global keynote speaker and facilitator who guides many of the world's leading companies in developing cultures of learning and high performance. His TED Talks have been viewed more than nine million times. He's the author of an amazing book, The Performance Paradox: Turning The Power Of Mindset Into Action, which was selected as a must-read by the Next Big Idea Club and was shortlisted for the Thinkers50 Breakthrough Idea Award. Amazing. Eduardo, I'm honored and privileged to welcome you to the show.

Thank you. It's great to be here with you.

I'm looking forward to spending some time with you. We had a chance to meet in person in London at Thinkers50, which was nice. I truly loved your book. I think it was insightful and very impactful. A lot of great insights are packed in there.

It's great to be spending time around the show. Thanks for the invitation.

As we do on the show, we try to uncover the story that brought you to do this amazing work in the world. We will make it easy on you. We want to make sure we go back and explore what we call flashpoints, the points in your journey that have ignited your gifts in the world. I'd love to turn it over to you in a moment and have you share the points in your journey that have become the flashpoints that have become the moments that defined who you are. Along the way, we'll pause and see what's showing up.

I know you're a wonderful coach. Feel free to pause, interject and share insights. When I think about flashpoints in my life, let's see what comes up. There were a couple in my childhood. 1) When I was nine years old and my parents were very dedicated to me and my sister. They made us their highest priority. I'm very grateful for that, but they were very sheltering. In retrospect, a key moment in my life was when some distant cousins were speaking with my parents and their kids used to go to a summer camp abroad. I grew up in Venezuela. They told my parents, “Why don't you send Eduardo with us with our kids to this summer camp abroad?”

My parents were very uncomfortable with that because they protected us so much. They asked me if I wanted to go. Saying yes was one of the key moments in my life. It was hard to be away from them on my own at nine years old in a foreign country where I didn't speak the language and a different culture. I had a hard time that summer. When I came back, I got off the airplane, my mom's question was, “Did you have a good time?” I said, “Yes.” “Do you want to go again?” I said, “Yes.”

I wanted to say no to both questions. I didn't want to disappoint them. I said yes to go back and that was for the wrong reason. I had the right answer. Looking back, I would say transparency is important, as being honest, and sharing that I'm struggling. Struggling and being on myself and developing a little bit of independence was super important for me because I grew up very strongly introverted. Being with peers was hard and it was important for me. That was a flashpoint.

Another flashpoint came when I was sixteen and my dad was transferred abroad. In between, I was not very engaged or motivated for anything. I didn't care about anything. School was boring for me, but I wanted to fit in with my peers. The way to fit in in my school seemed you don't do well in school. I was a very mediocre student. I wasn't satisfied with my school and social relationships, even though they were fine. When my dad was transferred abroad then it was an opportunity for me to reset and show up differently.

That was a key moment for me to take agency and change the trajectory of where I was going. In the US my family moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma and I started high school when I was a junior. I made the choice to try to do well in school so I could go to a good university and get a good job because I didn't have a better idea. I didn't have a purpose or interests, at least I could perform well if I set myself to work hard to do that.

That's what I set myself to do and that's what I did. I ended up going to an Ivy League school. I ended up working on Wall Street in investment banking. I know you had a career in finance as well. I spent 2 years in investment banking and then 5 years in venture capital in Silicon Valley. At that point, I thought, “This is the dream.” Growing up in Venezuela, I never thought I would work on Park Avenue or on Stanhill Road in Silicon Valley. I was making more money than I ever thought I would make and meeting with entrepreneurs who were changing the world every day.

After five years of doing that, I got into a quarter-life crisis. It came from a health crisis where I experienced a bad repetitive strain injury. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what had caused it. I didn't know how to heal from it. Doctors didn't know what I had or how to fix it. I went to lots of doctors and I started trying meditation like I know you did too, acupuncture and new spirituality. I was trying to figure out what the heck is happening with m.e I started kind of searching. This was the early days of Audible. On my commute, I would listen to audiobooks. One of the audiobooks that they were promoting was The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama. 

That was very influential for me. It taught me that my happiness was up to me to develop, and it wasn't a function of my circumstances. It was something that I could generate within myself. At the same time, my wife had gone through several jobs until she became a teacher. When she became a teacher, I saw a change in her that I hadn't seen before. She found something she was into that gave her a sense of meaning and purpose. I realized she has this amazing thing that I'm very happy for her but I don't have that for myself.

Part of what I needed to do is figure out lots of things in terms of health, but also part of what I needed to do was figure out what I do with my life that is going to give me the sense that I'm making a difference in somebody else's life and that I'm making a good use of each day, that I'm being a good steward of my life, which I didn't feel at the time. I went to grad school at that point I decided to leave venture capital at this very cushy job and go to grad school to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. That felt meaningful to me. I'll pause there, but those are a couple of flashpoints that have been important to me.

It's crazy. You've shared some amazing flashpoints. For most people who've been through a situation like yours, their heads would be spinning and thinking like, “What do I do with my life here at this point?” What makes it relatable is this idea of a lot of us finding ourselves is lost, trying to figure it out and frustrated in this journey of, “What am I meant for? How do I find that happiness?” I love that you bring up The Art Of Happiness. It’s a brilliant book.

The idea is to reach out for help in any way we can get it because we are not finding it within. You go out there and try to find hope in every corner. Part of that is to feel something meaningful in your life and keeping that exploration on for you finally led you to a path at this point that is starting to get you what you want. In the earlier days of your journey, it started to be around pleasing others and not necessarily pleasing yourself because you didn't even know what you truly wanted. You felt a bit lost. I call it the idea of being a lost Wayfinder. You're a Wayfinder in a sense now, but you were lost for many years trying to figure out what the heck you are supposed to do with this beautiful life.

I felt lost because I was trying to please others. That was fostered in part by the school. A lot of us might have this similar experience where in my experience in school we were told what we needed to learn and in my case, it was teachers talking to me. It was an exploration of what I was interested in. It wasn't an experience of, “What can I do for other people? How can I make the world a better place?” It wasn't giving me an opportunity to find my interest and what I could do in the world. I found myself lost.

When I left finance, and of course I know people in finance who have a deep sense of purpose and are doing fantastic work for other people. I didn't feel that because I hadn't developed in that way. When you left finance, I think you left with a lot more clarity than I did. You were in a boardroom. You made a choice of saying, “I'll leave this room to change this room.” You went with some clarity around what your next chapter was.

I was lost. I was going to go explore and figure out what I wanted to feel because, in my repetitive strain injury, I lost my ability to use my hands. I met people. I was in that path. It was painful for me to use a keyboard, or mouse, brush my teeth, drive or open doors. I was getting worse every day. I met people with the same condition who couldn't use their hands for more than ten minutes a day. That gave me a sense of mortality. Not that I was going to die, but that I couldn't take my hands and my ability to do things for granted.

I felt like what I was doing with my hands at the time wasn't making a difference in anybody else's life because there was so much capital in the venture capital industry that the great companies were going to be funded whether I was doing that work or not. I was sitting in boardrooms and expected to give advice to CEOs when I didn't have any experience. I felt like a fake. I felt like I was repeating what I heard other board members say and that created a lot of stress. What I wanted to feel was that if I got hit by a bus the next day, I had lived life well. At that point, I didn't feel like that. I wanted to get to that point. 

I feel that viscerally the sense of wanting to have that impact and that feeling of like you've done something impactful in your life and it has meaning. This injury you had, this friction you were dealing with and I think it's also something that came up to give you this sign that it was time for a change. It was also something I dealt with that was awful, but I think sometimes we're faced with these issues because it's a sign of something more to come from us.

That's a great thing to point out. At the time, I was 27 years old, it felt like the worst thing that could be happening to a 27-year-old. I didn't have a perspective at the time. It felt like a horrible thing. Looking back, it was such a wonderful thing that it happened because it put me on a different trajectory. First of all, in terms of health, I'm so much healthier now because I changed many things about how I eat, sleep, and take care of myself, but the sense of purpose, what I do, how I live, the sense that I learned that I could create my own happiness and my own emotions in life. I'm in such a better place now.

What you're pointing out is a big lesson. Sometimes, these hardships are things that can get us to a much better place at a more micro level, our emotions are also a signal. In this case, my body was saying, “You need to make a change.” Sometimes even if we're in a conversation with somebody, we feel an emotion if we note it. Sometimes we can bring it up and talk about it. That can also be an important signal that tells us that there's something there to explore.

Sometimes, these hardships are things that can get us to a much better place.

You know where we're going to head to next, which is I want to know what happens and what's the next chapter along this journey of finding yourself? Tell me what happens next.

I decided to apply to Stanford to get a Master's there. I didn't get in. My wife was settled in the area. We wanted to stay in the area. I waited two years and I reapplied. At that time, I did get in. I have a Master's in Education and an MBA. Over there, I was working on a lot of entrepreneurial and social entrepreneurship projects because I wanted to explore that, learn what that was, and find something that I could create or contribute to the world.

While I was there I was introduced to Stanford professor Carol Dweck. By the way, if I had gotten accepted the first time, I wouldn't have met her because she wasn't there yet. That's another example of something that seemed like a bad thing that ended up changing my life. I met her. She was looking for somebody with a business background to bring a growth mindset out into the world. She had released her book Mindset: The New Psychology of Success. She had done some research that was helpful for schools, students and teachers.

We became partners. We co-founded an organization called MindsetWorks with one of her former students Lisa Blackwell. I led that organization for over ten years. MindsetWorks serves schools to help them build the growth mindset culture. That was another flashpoint, was meeting Carol Dweck. That also came from telling my classmates what I was looking for. My classmates knew what I was looking for. When they heard this professor's looking for somebody like this, they introduced me to her. That was a turning point and a flashpoint.

Another flashpoint was when I was the CEO of MindsetWorks a couple of years in, one of my board members came to me and said, “We are trying to evangelize a growth mindset. People don't know what a growth mindset is. You are the CEO of this organization. It's great that you are working hard, but if we're going to evangelize a growth mindset, people need to know who you are. People in Silicon Valley need to know who you are. You need to also be a face out there. That was very uncomfortable to me because I grew up very introverted. I thought there was much work to do in the office. I said, “Ellen, I agree with you, but right now there's too much work to do. I'll keep that in the back of my mind.”

A couple of months later, Carol Dweck was asked to do a TEDx Talk and she couldn't do it. I thought, “That's an opportunity where I could work hard and do a TEDx Talk. Potentially, it could reach a lot of people. that could help us spread the message of a growth mindset. It would help me also get out there and have people know who the CEO of this organization is.” I did the TEDx talk and it went viral. It has over four million views now. I started to be asked to do more and more public speaking, which was surprising to me, I enjoyed getting out and being in conversation with people and designing experiences where people could generate insight that was meaningful to them. That became more and more of my job until it became my full-time job.

A few years later, I transitioned out of MindsetWorks to do public speaking full-time that's what I've been doing for several years now. That's how I do what I do. At some point, an opportunity came. I wasn't looking to become a public speaker, but I ended up as a public speaker. Similarly, I didn't think I was ready to write a book, but the opportunity to write a book with Penguin Random House came about and I couldn't turn it down. I dropped everything. I worked hard for three years to release the Performance Paradox. Another flashpoint is to get the opportunity to learn,  grow and contribute something meaningful to the world.

The Virtual Campfire | Eduardo Briceno | Growth And Learning

The journey that you described is the very definition of the growth mindset. Getting into this ability to see that we can do things that are outside of our initial expectation of who we are, but if we allow ourselves to lean into that discomfort and allow ourselves to see what's possible, we can do those things because expanding our potential through growing into those things. I'm amazed by your story because there are a lot of people who struggle with public speaking or doing things that are more on the public stage, especially introverts. What I often find is that there are a lot of great messages that are waiting to come out and we need to give those people the place to speak to be able to share their voice in whatever way it may look like because otherwise we're all losing out. I think it's nice to know your story of how it came to be.

That first TEDx Talk was a bit outside of my comfort zone, but I thought, “It's only 10 minutes and I have 6 weeks to prepare a script and memorize it. I can go to the stage. If I memorize it well, I can say it from stage.” When I'm on stage, this is my plan and this is what I did. I'm not going to look at anybody's eyes, I'm going to look at the back wall and the lights because if I look at people's eyes, I'm going to start wondering what they're thinking or they're going to think that I'm not doing a good job and I'm going to forget everything. Through a lot of iteration, writing the script, getting feedback from friends and from colleagues and from Carol and going to Carol's office and practicing and getting her feedback and then starting to practice delivery.

I’m videotaping myself in delivering the TEDx Tal, sharing it with people and getting feedback through tons and tons of practice, ten I was able to do the speech for ten minutes. That was the beginning. Right after that, the stakes were lower in other conversations and other events. Every event is a learning opportunity. It’s something where I solicit feedback and I continue to improve.

It then comes writing which maybe it's not as as challenging for you, but it could be daunting thinking, especially if you've only written an article or two or like written small pieces. To consider writing an entire book, especially a well-researched book, I would consider your book to be very well-researched which can be feeling like you're climbing a big mountain.


Tell me about your journey into writing and then we'll talk about some of the concepts from the book, which I think are amazing. 

Writing was a huge challenge. I didn't think that a publisher would be interested in me or that I was ready to write a book. I didn't know what the scope would be, but I was introduced to a literary agent who happened to know Carol's publisher and ended up doing a contract in a month. All of a sudden, we have a contract. I'm not sure exactly what the scope of the book will be. I did know what to do, which is to get into the learning zone and also to partner with experts. I collaborate to writers who are experts in writing books and editors. My editor at Random House is incredible.

I surrounded myself with experts. I collaborated with them. In the beginning, the biggest weakness in my view was stories. I knew that we needed a lot of stories in the book. I didn't think I had enough stories. I interviewed over a hundred people, which was fun. I love interviewing people like you do in this show, learning about their past and insights. That helped me generate stories but also continue to evolve the frameworks. That's part of what I loved about the work of writing the book, is that I continued to refine the frameworks and come up with new frameworks. 

Finding my voice took probably a year. In the beginning, I would go too deep into the science and the ideas. finding the pace of quickly moving from science to stories, but not going delving too deeply into the stories and for them to be long, but a fast-paced book that has a lot of insights, strategies, and stories and what does that sound like? That was something that required a lot of feedback and works along the way.

A lot of learning, interviewing people and also reviewing some key research and some of the ideas. I’m spending time on that, then a lot of writing and feedback and collaboration with other people. The awesome thing about writing is that it's behind curtains until you publish it. If you have a TEDx Talk that you're doing on a particular day, you only have time to prepare until that day then whatever you do for those ten minutes, that's going to be the performance. In a book, you can always continue to improve it until you feel it's ready to publish. That's a great privilege.

I love how you described that process. It's something I can relate to, but also something that helps other people think about how to navigate challenging things that they're going through and how to overcome them. It takes a a process of deconstructing it, thinking about it step by step and moving towards getting there eventually. I want to talk about your book. l want to talk about the concepts in the book. Maybe you start with the more grander scheme thing of what is the performance paradox in essence. Before you answer that, I think about how is this additive or built from a growth mindset. Maybe you want to start there.

I can start there. In order for us to be motivated and effective learners, we need some of what I call in the book, cornerstones of change. First, we need to believe that we can change. That's what we call a growth mindset is the belief that I can change, learn and improve. It's the belief that is critical. It's necessary, but it's not sufficient. In addition to the belief that we can change, we also need to know how to change and improve. That's what my book is about. I'll share what the keys there are. I can learn a growth mindset. I know how to learn. 

We also need a why, a sense of purpose like, “Why am I going to put in the effort to learn and improve or to contribute?” I know purpose is important to you as well. Those are three cornerstones of change that help any of those become motivated and effective learners, then there's a fourth that is important, which is the belief that I belong in a learning community. When I see the people around me and I feel like I belong in that community, that community is my home. I see learners. I see people who are sharing with each other what they're looking to improve. I see people who are soliciting feedback. I see people who are experimenting and examining mistakes and discussing mistakes to improve. Those behaviors of learning behaviors are valued. I feel like when I do those behaviors, my status rises. People respect me. 

When those four keys are in place in our families, teams or organizations, then we become unstoppable. We continue to grow our skills and performance over time and also our relationships because we ask more questions and listen better. We get to know each other better. We form deeper relationships and we collaborate better. At a high level, Carol’s book mindset is about the belief that we can change. My book is about how to change and how to improve and also, how to build those communities where there are learning communities.

Chapter 1 is called The Performance Paradox, which is the title of the boo. The performance paradox is the counterintuitive reality that if we're constantly performing, our performance suffers. This is something that I think is very common I used to fall into the trap in some ways I still do. When I was working in investment banking or venture capital in particular, I was always trying to perform. I was constantly trying to minimize mistakes and to show that I was knowledgeable and competent.

The Virtual Campfire | Eduardo Briceno | Growth And Learning

What I didn't realize is that that's a way to stagnate. The way to understand that is, let's look at a group of people who are skilled, like objectively world-class at what they do. For example, you can look at Cirque du Soleil. They do incredible acrobatic things beautifully and artistically. What we see is when they're performing. What we don't know and don't keep top of mind every day is that the reason they become good at what they do is that they spend a lot of time not doing that, but doing something very different from what we see.

When they're behind the gym or at the studio, they're dropping the ball a lot. They're missing the timing a lot because they're focused on the next level of challenge. They're focused on what they don't know yet. It is that time what I call the learning zone that allows them to improve their skills and improve their performance when they go back to the stage, which I call the performance zone. It’s the same thing in sports. If you're playing a championship final, you're having trouble with a particular move, you avoid that move during that game because all you care is about winning. After the game, you go to your coach and say, “I have to work on this particular move.” That's a very different activity than performing. What happens in work and life is that we get stuck performing chronic performance and that leads to stagnation in the book.

Chapters 2 through 14 are about how we habituate and systematize the learning zone and the performance zone. Both of them are important for us to grow our skills, performance and relationships in work and life. Part 1) Individuals and the key concepts. Part 2) How do we form this in teams and organizations in terms of the relationships and the systems and structures? Part 3) Making an impact on why we do this work in the first place.

I've read the book and I think it's one of my favorite books. Particularly the last part of what you described is having a learning community is powerful because you need to have a place where people can allow you that grace to be able to not be perfect. You are right in this concept, not that you need validation, but I think the idea that we do often fall into this trap of being in performance all the time. If you think about it taking the LinkedIn or the social media view that everyone thinks what they're seeing is what we all are all the time, but that's the glossy view of who we are.

We don't see all the learning that we do behind the scenes. Another part of looking at the Performance Paradox is that they don't see the dirty work that we're doing behind the scenes to become the person we are. Much like this show, our learning zone happens along the way of becoming who we are then we start to show up and do these amazing things. Even then, we're still on our having learning zones in other areas of our lives and looking at what's next for us. I love this concept and it has me thinking about, and I think this is what you talk about in the book a little bit, having the opportunity to play and not be perfect allows us to expand our creativity into new arenas.

Play is a way to explore, discover, have fun and generate positive emotions, which is helpful for innovation and creativity, and to enjoy life, which is at the end of the day something that is a high-level goal for us. One thing that you said that generated a thought for me is that it's the importance of community. Let me point out a couple of things about that. One is that sometimes we do engage in learning. We do have learning habits, but we do that in private. We do that when we are in our office or at home or we listen to a podcast on the exercise machine. 

That's good, but we often are afraid of doing that in collaboration with other people and sharing with our colleagues, “Here's what I'm trying to improve. I would love your feedback along the way. How did I facilitate that meeting? I would love your advice on what I could change going forward,” or being deliberate about, “As a team, what's working well? What do we want to try differently?” When we do that in collaboration, then we become a lot smarter in both learning and performing because we have a lot more brains, which are smarter than one brain. We are seeing different perspectives from different skills and different backgrounds. We need to build communities of learning that allow us to both learn and perform more highly.

We need to build communities of learning that allow us to both learn and perform more highly.

I've been a part of a lot of communities along the way. Some of them have been fantastic and some is not so great because the difference maker, if you think about the idea of a mastermind, you know that you are hoping to share ideas that are still in there, still being baked, with the idea that other people will give you their input and share what they're learning from you and everyone's learning along the way.

Sometimes these communities can be not quite the right community for you. You have to be careful about which learning communities you pick and how you're treating that community because it's a give-and-take about how you're showing up. Are you showing up with your real self? Are you a person who's coming in with the rawness of who you are and wants to play? Do you trust the people around you to do that? Are the people who are in that community also in the same space of they're there to truly connect and share who they are or they are to prove something? There's a lot of dynamics at play. The takeaway for me is to choose that learning community wisely.

Cultivate it and consider, are you cultivating your team, whatever that is, as a learning community? It's the team, a place to get work done, which certainly it is. Are you learning together? Are you sharing what you're observing of the customer or of each other of how you're collaborating?  To do that, if we're not there yet, anybody can start by planting an idea and saying, “Here's something I learned recently. You can share a video or an article or something and say, ‘I would love for us to talk about this. This takes five minutes. How did this land? What do people think about creating more learning habits and focusing not only on performing all the time but also on learning along the way? What do people think?’”

You can have a conversation about it. People usually love this and think about, “What are we going to work on next? What specific habit or structure? Is it soliciting feedback? Is it experimenting? Is it changing our agenda so that every week we talk about performance topics, but is there a section of the meeting where we also want to share what we're learning or where we want to ask questions of each other?” Building those structures and habits in order to not just perform, but also improve.

There are many things I want to explore, but I want to come back to you and understand what are the things that have you've learned about yourself on this journey that you haven't shared yet and you'd like to share maybe some lessons or insights that have bubbled up for you in your journey to getting to this book and to the work you're doing now that you want to share?

One thing that's coming to my mind is my three top core values are things that I've rediscovered along the way. 1) Learning. I was a very motivated and effective learner until I started going to school, then school I started associating and learning was something that was boring and irrelevant. That killed my motivation for learning. I think that happens a lot. Reconnecting with the joy and fulfillment that learning can do for us in our lives.

2) My school or my early experiences didn't expose me to contribution the value of contributing to other people and making a difference. That's the second core value that I realized, “That's bringing so much meaning to my life and feeling like I'm being a good steward of my life.” 3) Something that you mentioned, but I haven't, is authenticity. In the beginning, I was trying to please everybody. I was trying to show up as people expected. I've learned along the way the value of being authentic, transparent and showing up as I think and as I feel. That leads to learning and performing as well.

If I had to put a fourth core value is kindness. That is something that I didn't cultivate early on in my life, but I feel like the world would be such a better place if we were kind to each other or if each person was kind to the people around them. Those are some of the things that come to my mind that I've learned along the way.

The world would be such a great and better place if we were just kind to each other.

All of those things embody what it means to have a good learning community too. I think that's a powerful way to think about it. I want to close with one last question and I think you probably know where this one's going. This question is around what are 1 or 2 books that have had an impact on you and why?

I mentioned The Art Of Happiness by the Dalai Lama. That was super impactful for me because I never knew that first of all, it was okay to pursue happiness. I felt like life is about pursuing success, but reading this book is like, “Life is about developing happiness.” I haven't ever done anything to be deliberate about developing happiness because I thought that happiness was a result of my circumstances. If I wanted to become happier, I needed to get promotions and increase my salary, and then I would be happy, as opposed to happiness is an emotion that I can generate from within myself. That was huge in my life.

The Virtual Campfire | Eduardo Briceno | Growth And Learning

Second, the book Mindset by my mentor Carol Dweck. That transformed my life personally as it has for millions of people. it transformed what I do my past, having her as a mentor for now many years, has been transforming for me. I'll share, in the spirit of a campfire, I finished reading The Clan Of The Cave Bear. In general, I have gotten interested in historical fiction. It's helped me understand history from a human-centered approach and picture what it was like for people to live in different points of history. This book takes place thousands of years ago when fire was critical to people's survival. The picture of having a campfire conversation with the connection of having finished a book, which is wonderful, is one that I wanted to point out as well.

I'm putting that on my list. I have a very eclectic taste in books. Every time someone offers up a book that is way out of left field, I'm like, “I'm on it.” I can't get over all the insights and the stories you've shared have been amazing. They resonate deeply for me and I'm sure for the audience. I can't thank you enough for coming to the show.

It's my pleasure. Thank you for all you do and how you do it. I'm glad we've connected.

Likewise. I would be remiss if I didn't give you the chance to share where people can find out more about you. They have to go buy your book because it's fantastic. Where's the best place to learn more about your work? 

The book's called The Performance Paradox. It's available wherever books are sold. I'm very active on LinkedIn, I appreciate it when people connect where my website is. My last name is I have a monthly newsletter and some free download PDFs. The whole first chapter of my book is at the bottom of the book page there as well, if people want to start reading the first chapter.

Thanks again, and thanks to the readers for coming on this journey. I know you're leaving feeling inspired and ready to step out and do some amazing things in the world. That's a wrap.

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